Toyota Electric Lockers:
Emails between myself and Scott Muir
From: "Erik Bibelheimer"
<thebeebs@worldnet.att.net>
To: <wsmuir@rubicon.off-road.com>
Subject: Electric Lockers
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:05:59 -0800
Scott,
I'd be interested in the electric locker info URL you mentioned
on your
page. If its Karl Bellve's, then I've seen it already.
Also, do you happen to know if the Taco TRD locker mechanism
operates the
same way as the 4runner locker? Or if TRD locker installation
into a
non-TRD axle housing would be much different than installing the
4runner
locker into standard 8" axle housing? I'd eventually like to
install a TRD
Taco locker into my T100. Tacos and T100s use the same 8.4"
diff. as far
as I know, but I haven't done any real comparisons.
Thanks!
-- Erik Bibelheimer, Sacramento, CA
http://home.off-road.com/~bibelheimer
'86 4Runner
'97 T100
From: "Scott Muir"
<wsmuir@islandnet.com>
To: "Erik Bibelheimer"
<thebeebs@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Electric Lockers
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:49:11 -0700
Hello Erik...
I actually haven't seen much of Karl's locker page... just the
pictures of
him installing it. He may have used parts of my page which he was
welcome
to do but I haven't looked at it for a while...
Seems there is a lot of interest stirring about this lately.
http://www.off-road.com/~wsmuir/locker/rl.html will get you
there.
The reason I ask that people request it is that it isn't perfect
yet, but I
like to know who's interested.
There are a few things you should probably know. The Tacoma
locker is not
the same as the 4runner one. I haven't seen one either so I
cannot comment
on the compatibility of the electrics. What my big suggestion
here is, if
you can manage it, is, if you are robbing the axle from a tacoma,
take the
4x4ECU with it and as much of the wire harness as you can.
If you are planning on putting one into an existing tacoma by
buying a
locker... then you are pretty much starting off at the same point
I did.
Go to your toyota dealer and have them bring out the 3rd member
gaskets for
the standard diff and the locker.. In the case of the 4runner
one, they
were different, but most of the studs lined up which was
critical.
The Tacoma is a reverse rotation differential I believe.. (ie
ring gear is
on the left side of the truck so the pinion turns the other way)
(okay I just read the rest of your note: its going into a T100 8)
)
In this case you have to compare part numbers of the STANDARD
diffs with
matching gear ratios to see if in fact they are the same thing.
Make sure that the axles have the same part numbers... You could
also
compare the computer part numbers between the 4runner and the
tacoma TRD to
see if the electrics are the same... On the runner there is a 1
ft long
wire harness that goes between the coupler on the diff and the
harness on
the chassis... compare those to see if they are also the same.
The reason I recommend using the computer if you can is that it
will be
basically painless for you then. My device that I rigged
functions with my
locker it did not work without modification on Karls. On Karl's
we had to
introduce some resistors to turn down the amount of power the
locker motor
was getting, as a result I'm not as happy with the design. Toyota
changed
the design of the actuator without telling me (the cads) which
led to
jamming the actuator inside. No harm done though.
Regarding the computer, you'll hear a few people whining about
the locker
not working when they need it, or having to drive a certain way
to get it to
lock.
Well that has to do with a few safety inputs on the computer. You
can
bypass them without any problems but beware that you are looking
out for the
proper use of the locker at that point... it looks at the speed
sensor and
the position of the 4x4 lever to see if it is in low range.
I have engaged my locker at 35mph, and have driven it locked up
at 55mph. no
problems. Toyota was not interested in people driving with the
axle locked
on ice at good clips... you also want the rear wheels going the
same speed
when you lock it (ie straight line driving). I've heard of a few
ARB's
getting trashed when a wheel is spinning when it gets locked.. it
takes a
few times, but the dog clutches wear out. in this case it is
splines and I
could see the ends of them getting chipped away.
So anyways, best case: the t100 and the tacoma have the same rear
axle assy,
and you take the whole thing from a wrecked taco. as you depart
from there,
you just have to compare part numbers at your favourite dealer to
make sure
that everything will fit together as expected.
Feel free to bug me with more questions... I'm away for a couple
weeks for
xmas though..
Scott.
From: "Erik Bibelheimer"
<thebeebs@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Scott Muir" <wsmuir@islandnet.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Lockers
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:49:53 -0800
Thanks for the great info and quick response Scott!
> I actually haven't seen much of Karl's locker page... just
the pictures
of
> him installing it. He may have used parts of my page which
he was
welcome
> to do but I haven't looked at it for a while...
I just helped him draw up a new wiring diagram. He put it up at:
http://molmed.ummed.edu/~kdb/locker/locker2.html
It looks functionally identical to yours (I think he said that
you helped
him). Feel free to use it if you want.
> The Tacoma is a reverse rotation differential I believe..
(ie ring gear
is
> on the left side of the truck so the pinion turns the other
way)
Hmm... never thought of that. I'll have to check that out.
Wouldn't the
engine have to turn the other way too then? I thought that
reverse
rotation was only used in the front because they can change the
t-case to
turn the front shaft the correct direction. Or maybe reverse
rotation is
just the way the gears are cut (drive side vs. coast/reverse
side). I cant
remember.
> The reason I recommend using the computer if you can is that
it will be
> basically painless for you then. My device that I rigged
functions with
my
> locker it did not work without modification on Karls. On
Karl's we had
to
> introduce some resistors to turn down the amount of power
the locker
motor
> was getting, as a result I'm not as happy with the design.
Toyota
changed
> the design of the actuator without telling me (the cads)
which led to
> jamming the actuator inside. No harm done though.
What do you mean, "changed the design?" Is one year
preferable to another?
What is "the cads?" And why would Toyota tell you? (or
were you kidding?)
Thanks also for the tips on how to do the research as to whether
or not it
will fit.
BTW, how much did you pay for your USED locker? I think Karl said
he paid
$650 new, with a discount. Hopefully used will be much cheaper.
Also,
Karl told me he just got ahold of a used FJ80 front electric
locker that
he's going to put in the front of his 4Runner. I'm sooooo
jealous!! :-)
Thanks again!!!
-- Erik Bibelheimer, Sacramento, CA
http://home.off-road.com/~bibelheimer
'86 4Runner
'97 T100
From: "Scott Muir"
<wsmuir@islandnet.com>
To: "Erik Bibelheimer"
<thebeebs@worldnet.att.net>
Cc: "Karl Bellve" <Karl.Bellve@umassmed.edu>
Subject: RE: Electric Lockers
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:18:09 -0700
>Thanks for the great info and quick response Scott!
Well you do it fast or you forget about it 8)
> I actually haven't seen much of Karl's locker page... just
the pictures
>I just helped him draw up a new wiring diagram. He put it up
at:
>
>http://molmed.ummed.edu/~kdb/locker/locker2.html
Neato. Yeah I have seen this...
>It looks functionally identical to yours (I think he said
that you helped
>him). Feel free to use it if you want.
Thanks, but I think I'll leave the page to karl... I have kinda
burned out
my energy on the documenting of the thing...
>> The Tacoma is a reverse rotation differential I
believe.. (ie ring gear
>>is
>> on the left side of the truck so the pinion turns the
other way)
>
>Hmm... never thought of that. I'll have to check that out.
Wouldn't the
>engine have to turn the other way too then? I thought that
reverse
>rotation was only used in the front because they can change
the t-case to
>turn the front shaft the correct direction. Or maybe reverse
rotation is
>just the way the gears are cut (drive side vs. coast/reverse
side). I cant
>remember.
I do not know actually... I may that incorrect... There was a
discussion
about this a few times in the digest and I don't recall what
became of it.
The only information here is, "Make sure you look into it
first"
>What do you mean, "changed the design?" Is one year
preferable to another?
> What is "the cads?" And why would Toyota tell you?
(or were you kidding?)
Yes I was kidding about Toyota.. A "Cad" usually refers
to the proverbial
man who doesn't call the woman after a one night stand... using
them like
shake and bake bags...
This is impossible to fully explain via email, because I don't
know what the
mechanical terms are for this stuff, and it is one of those
things that once
you look at it 'you'll know'
Anyways, the motor has a worm gear (like an auger) on it which
turns a big
nylon gear (about 2" in diameter and 1/8" thick) the
big gear has a metal
disk on one side with parts of it missing.. the metal disk is the
part which
provides the continuity for the limit switches. when the contacts
hit the
hole punched, the curcuit dies and so on.. during transition, the
contacts
for the limiter are connected to each other...
the big gear spins on the axle which has the external pinion on
it (the
thing that moves the fork) but it can turn independently of the
shaft. all
this so far is the same..
Where the difference comes, is in how the large gear and the
pinion shaft
are coupled.
On mine, there are 2 springs wound in opposite directions. They
are wrapped
around the shaft and beside each other... there is a 'tooth' that
juts out
and hooks into both springs.. they are not stressed until the big
gear is
turned... if the pinion meets with any resisitance, the one of
the springs
winds up.. the gear is able to turn and make it to the shutoff
point without
the pinion moving at all... then when things line up inside the
diff, pop!
and its locked.. or in the case of mine, if the lock sleve won't
move, pop!
when the diff unloads itself.
in the case of Karl's, there is only one spring and and I don't
remember
which way it functions.. I think it is only for locking... the
gear and
that pinion are positively connected in the other direction which
causes 2
problems... 1) when unlocking, if the diff is bound up, the motor
will sit
there under load until it is able to pull the sleeve out (read:
possible
burn out situation) and 2) the motor can bind up inside against
this
positive contact due to the momentum of the motor remaining after
the
shutdown happens.
The computer seems to compensate for this somehow... I think it
pulses the
motor and checks to see what happens.. but it uses full power i
believe.. it
may even use a back current to stop the motor spinning.
Anyways, we got around the jamming by restricting the amount of
power given
to the actuator.. I used a variable resistor to determine that
5ohm (high
power) was optimal.
If I could make something solid state which mimmics the toyota
computer I
would, but I don't have the knowledge or the resources to do it..
The version that karl has works, so long as you understand how to
use it and
not try to force it to do anything it doesn't want to.. 8) It is
the main
reason I provided him with a momentary-on switch rather than a
simple toggle
switch...
>Thanks also for the tips on how to do the research as to
whether or not it
>will fit.
Well, i'm trying to provide you with the same logic I used... I'd
really
hate for you to make an investment based oranges when you're
trying to
install an apple.
>BTW, how much did you pay for your USED locker? I think Karl
said he paid
>$650 new, with a discount.
I got really hammered actually. it was $1000 cdn with taxes. The
yard I
bought it off of had access to toyota pricing.. they checked and
charged me
an optimal amount. Just not so much that I would opt for a new
one $1300
at the time and enough to get a big bang out of it.. they have
been dropping
in price since then... I don't know what they are worth now, but
I bought
mine in january 98... it was off of a 96 4runner and the twits
wouldn't
let me have the computer or any wires either...
>Hopefully used will be much cheaper.
So long as the wrecker doesn't know what it is they have, you
could get it
for a steal..
>Also, Karl told me he just got ahold of a used FJ80 front
electric locker
that
>he's going to put in the front of his 4Runner.
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how this pans out. On solid
axle trucks
there isn't really enough clearance between the actuator and the
ubolt
mounted behind the axle. On the one truck I know of that works,
they had to
shave down a bit of the diff, use a smaller diameter ubolt, and
one screw on
the diff had to be changed to a lower profile..
This one is different though I haven't seen any pics of it... so
again, no
comment.. but karl has his work cut out for him.
>Thanks again!!!
Hey, no worries... The reason I went this route was because at
the time
arb's were just short of $2000 for a single and $3000 for 2 of
them...(compressor etc) well you can read the story on the web
page, but
after all this, if there was a way of converting the diff into a
'cable
locker' I'd do it in a second!
Bonne Chance!
Scott.
cc:karlmeister
From: "Erik Bibelheimer"
<thebeebs@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Scott Muir" <wsmuir@islandnet.com>
Subject: Re: Electric Lockers
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:12:53 -0800
> This is impossible to fully explain via email, because I
don't know what
the
> mechanical terms are for this stuff,
Well, you did an excellent job of it!
> and it is one of those things that once
> you look at it 'you'll know'
Yeah, a picture of the internals would help, but I get the idea.
The one
you've got reminds me of how a manual hub works. It also seems to
be the
better design of the two. Its better on the motor, and it doesn't
seem to
jam. I wonder why they changed it. It looks like yours is from a
'96 and
Karl's is from a '97, so I'd try to get a '96 model (or a later
one WITH
the computer). I wonder if the ones you order new are all Karl's
style, or
if you can still order the '96 style. Great explanation and good
to know!
Thanks again!
-- Erik Bibelheimer, Sacramento, CA
http://home.off-road.com/~bibelheimer
'86 4Runner
'97 T100
From: "Scott Muir"
<wsmuir@islandnet.com>
To: "Erik Bibelheimer"
<thebeebs@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Electric Lockers
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:24:34 -0700
I forgot to mention. There are several different gearsets for
these...
4.10, 4.31, 4.56... be careful, you have to have matching ratios
front and
back...
On the 8" ones, they will take the v6 r&p as far as we
know... there is a
lister that had 4.88's put into his 8" electric retrofit.
but as always,
this is just another consideration.